NDA: No D*cks Allowed
Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite.
On this podcast, NDA stands for No D*cks Allowed — not men, but the behaviors that keep women small. Each episode explores the patterns women experience in work and life, and the moments when they decide they’re done shrinking and ready to rise.
NDA: No D*cks Allowed
Not Wrong, Just Different
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Type A is treated as the standard for what responsible, prepared, and successful should look like. When someone operates differently, their process is frequently mistaken for disorganization, procrastination, or a lack of commitment.
In this episode, Elizabeth talks honestly about what it feels like to be a Type B person in a world that does not always understand or appreciate her way of working. We explore time optimism, flexibility, structure, trust, and the tension that can surface when different operating styles depend on one another.
We also unpack the assumptions placed on women who do not fit the expected mold of always being organized, early, and in control. Different ways of working can still be effective, but making those differences work requires self-awareness, communication, and a willingness to stop treating one style as the only right one.
Thank you for listening to NDA!
If this episode made you think, challenged a perspective, or helped you recognize a pattern in yourself, consider sharing it with someone else who might need the conversation.
You can connect with us on Instagram at @nda_pod, where we continue the discussion between episodes.
Until next time, notice the pattern. Then decide what happens next.
I've been really excited, looking forward to today's topic. And the reason why is because I am the type B person in a business partnership with someone who is very type A.
SPEAKER_02So it's true. When we talk about type A, type B personalities, generally speaking, we know that humans are, as we discussed in a previous episode, complex and there's a sliding scale between both ends of that spectrum. For sure. Yes. But I think for the sake of today's episode, we're simplifying it just a little bit.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, we are. We're just two women sharing our perspectives, our humble perspectives. One of us identifying as type B, the other identifying as type A. So, Amanda, question for you. Yes. When I tell you I'm type B, I'm genuinely interested what that means to you after working this closely with me for several years.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I would describe you as comfortable with ambiguity. Okay. Comfortable in adapting kind of as things unfold. Okay. Time optimistic.
SPEAKER_00I really do love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02As we've called it before. Yes. I think those are the the top things that come to mind. Okay. Because those are the things that like most strongly are opposite for me, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yes. Just full transparency so everybody knows to paint a picture of this time optimism. It is a curse that I live with have my whole life. But even for today, it's 10.06 right now a.m. We are supposed to start recording at 9:30 a.m. At 9:25. I texted you, Amanda, and said, Hey, can I please have till 9:45 a.m.? You said, sure. And I think probably deep down you knew it wasn't going to be 9:45 a.m. Not a chance. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_02Can I give an example of this from a type A's perspective, please? This is like my favorite example of this of all time. So because it illustrates your point, but also illustrates how well I know you. So we, you and I, this was last summer, you and I were facilitating a team building day for a client. And the event was supposed to start at, I think it was actually 9 a.m. So I had gotten there early to set everything up because I'm a logistics person. So I had all the materials and everything and was getting the space set up and everything ready to go. And you were acting in that particular day as more of like an assist on all of the presentations. It was you, me, and one other person from the team.
SPEAKER_00Oh, now I know what you're talking about. Yes, I remember that day.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So you didn't need to be there to set anything up. So I told you, okay, if you could be here by 8 45, maybe. Okay. And so it was like 8 42, I think. And the other presenter that was with me was like, Where's Elizabeth? Shouldn't she be here? And I said, I'm gonna tell you exactly what happened. Oh no! I said she saw on her GPS that she was gonna get here at 842, and she said to herself, Well, I have time to stop and grab coffee. So that's what she did. I said, So she's not gonna be here till 8:55. Shut up. 852. You come pulling into the parking lot, and I look over at the other presenter, and I just kind of gestured toward your car, and you come over, and he made some comment about you being late, and you were like, Well, my GPS said I was gonna get here by 8:42, so I had time to stop for coffee.
SPEAKER_01Are you kidding me? And I just looked at her and shrugged. It's like I told you, I knew what happened.
SPEAKER_00Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite. Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed.
SPEAKER_02Not men, the behaviors that keep women small.
SPEAKER_00This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka. And I'm Elizabeth Zipola. Welcome to NDA. My version of type B, I feel like I'm definitely highly driven, but I'm definitely not naturally structured, right? And I'm someone who, hence your example that you just shared, I am definitely very committed to the outcome, but I definitely also don't want to follow a predetermined route to get there. And I'm just even thinking, you and I just did something yesterday with a group. And I love to take room to imagine and build, but I also love to tear it apart and tear it down and improve it. And I love asking what if seven more times. And I love just to continue creating until I absolutely have to release it. And you know, from who we were with yesterday, this is just how I am as a type B person in real time, in the middle of it during breaks, I was tearing it apart, rebuilding, tearing it apart, rebuilding, right? So the reason why I guess I just wanted to say that is because I think sometimes we use type A as almost like shorthand for someone who is more responsible or ambitious or prepared and successful. And then by default, type B, I feel in my life, becomes almost like that miscellaneous junct drawer where we put everyone who doesn't color code their closet or experience joy from preparing for a meeting 12 business days in advance. But different operating styles, they're not the same as different levels of commitment, right?
SPEAKER_02You can be just as committed, but still just have the preparation or the execution show up in completely different ways. And I think we live in a world that definitely praises and recognizes more so the quote unquote type A way of doing things.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02And so I think that just puts people who tend more toward type B style at a disadvantage because we've become so structured and the expectation is so structured that when someone shows up differently, it's really hard for some people to accept.
SPEAKER_00Oh, definitely. Most people to accept. I truly, and I'm curious if any of our listeners who identify with kind of what I'm saying as being more of a type B person, wonder if you feel the same way. We'd love to hear from you. My whole life I've felt like a fish swimming the opposite direction up the stream, right? So that definitely hits. I think about you and me for this other business venture we do. And you know what? Honestly, even just for this podcast, because Amanda, you might prepare the general outline, and I will reinvent what belongs inside of what I want to talk about right up until two seconds before it's it's happening, and neither of us is necessarily wrong, right? It turns out we we produce a great episode every week.
SPEAKER_02There are a lot of people that I would say fall into that I know that fall into uh quote unquote type B personality. I don't know that I've ever perceived them as lazy or not hardworking. Really? I think, yeah, no, I think it's always unprepared's a little different. Okay. There have been situations where is unprepared the right word? I'm thinking now. I think more so disorganized than completely unprepared.
SPEAKER_00Would you describe me as leaning more heavily towards disorganized or unprepared? Disorganized. But in my everyday life, I definitely push everything down to the wire. And people I think of where we used to work, some of the people we worked with, they can interpret that as procrastination. And I will say I also have ADHD pretty significantly. So I'm definitely neurodiverse. So time and I, we've never had a very stable or respectful relationship at all, the two of us. So I'm not avoiding whatever it is. I'm truly just still actively creating. And I love to use every available minute because some part of me believes that there's just still like one more idea or improvement or sentence or connection or possibility that could emerge. Being early does not relax me. It makes me feel like I have made some significant error and I donated, I don't know, even three usable minutes to a waiting room that I'll never get to access again. So I hate arriving early and calmly sitting there because my brain is literally panicking and saying, you could have edited three paragraphs or answered an email or reorganized this, that, or the other thing, or launched a new service during that time. And I know that other people would like to have those few minutes back emotionally. Sure. Maybe our listeners would benefit from hearing because you're the type A voice, when does my way of operating create legitimate stress for you?
SPEAKER_02I think it's when it directly impacts me. So to give an example, if we are preparing for a session with a client and I know there's stuff that I need to print or assemble or whatever, getting it the morning of, that's super stressful to me because, as you know, I'm not a morning person by any stretch of the imagination. Never have been. Don't really have any interest in becoming one, frankly. It's just it's not my vibe. And that's okay too. It is okay. Yes. So on days when we have client engagements, typically that requires me to wake up earlier because I have to be somewhere earlier and to give myself enough time to get ready. So I prep everything the night before, my bag is ready, all the things as much as I can do the night before to get it all ready. I will do it. Up to also loading the car. Really? Yes. Because I don't want to be scrambling in the morning. I want to be able to maybe work out if I have time, shower, put my makeup on, make my breakfast, and get on the road.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_02If we have a presentation like that that needs materials and I get an email from you 15 minutes before I'm planning to leave, because I also leave early because I do like to arrive places early. That throws off my timeline in the morning if I have to like all of a sudden print materials.
SPEAKER_00Okay. But in fairness, I think I only did that to you once or twice when you first started at our previous company several years ago. And then I learned I can't do that with you. Yeah, it only happened once or twice. Oh my God, in my brain, it did.
SPEAKER_01Almost literally every time.
SPEAKER_00Shut up, did it?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_00Listen, our listeners are truly, this is what I wanted this episode to be because I wanted them to see authentically when two different styles vibe together or collide.
SPEAKER_02Most of the time vibe, sometimes collide.
SPEAKER_00So did I stress you out the other day when I told you the day before how much I wanted you to print?
SPEAKER_02It stressed me out a little bit, not as much as the day of.
SPEAKER_00What have you learned, I guess, from your vantage point, not to interpret personally having such a type B person so close to you in your work life?
SPEAKER_02There has never been a situation where I felt like you were gonna leave me hanging. Good. Okay. I know that you're gonna get whatever needs to be done, done. It just might not be on the timeline that I would do it. And I've learned over time that that's okay.
SPEAKER_00Okay, so help our other type B listeners with this. Because I don't know the answer to any of these questions I'm asking, Amanda, just so you know. What have I done naturally, I guess, so that you can trust that I'm not gonna leave you hanging? Was it always that way?
SPEAKER_02You just had a hunch, or I'm trying to think if there was ever a time where nothing's coming to mind because every time you've committed to doing something, you've always followed through. So for me, it's less about what you say and more about what you do. Okay. And there has always been a follow-through on your actions. We have never ever, and you and I have done a lot of presentations, a lot of client sessions together in the past five years. Right. There has never been a situation where I felt like you left me hanging on a presentation, like you showed up unprepared. That's never happened.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Or did you ever feel like you looked bad because of no okay?
SPEAKER_02No, that's not enough. That was maybe a concern early on. She's constantly late to appointments, like that's gonna be a problem. But I think one, you're really good about communicating when you're running late. There's a difference between running late and not communicating that, right? And running late and being upfront and honest about it, being like, hey, my last meeting ran long. I'm gonna be another 10 minutes. Right. But I think once I recognize that you were communicating about it with the client andor with me, and adjusted my approach to make sure that I was always showing up a little bit early. I think for me, that was how I made sure that the client, because my biggest concern at that point was the client's perception. Sure. I don't want them to think that we're disorganized, can't do what we're committing to doing. Sure.
SPEAKER_00Okay, that helps. This is where we have to be honest because what we want to make sure that our listeners walk away from this with is knowing that a different way of arriving, a different way, a different process, it's not automatically an irresponsible one, but it can still affect other people. So for me as the type B, I cannot just flippantly say, oh, well, this is how I work best. This is how my creativity works while Amanda's waiting for something, a document that she needs to print, right? That she legitimately needs for me. But Amanda, she cannot automatically treat her preferred timeline as the only responsible one. Right. And I know my vantage point as a type B person, to me, that's where I have often felt. And I'm again curious if any other type B listeners out there have felt the same way. The way that I work, it's labeled as irresponsible when that couldn't be further from the truth. So the question really becomes okay, if you're a type A person working closely or if you love dearly a type B person, ask yourself what is the actual commitment, who's affected, and what information is genuinely needed and by when, right? So, and not only just a type A person in the relationship, but me as a type B person. That's important for me to ask myself too. So we can honor each other's commitments, but we we can do it in a way that doesn't force everyone to perform the same personality. And I I feel like you and I are well equipped to talk about this because we are so different, and I think we do that pretty well.
SPEAKER_02Yes, I would agree. And I think there's kind of going back to what I was saying a minute ago, there's a disadvantage to working in a space that has more type A leaning expectations and being a type B person. So I feel like that's where I can help make sure that people don't discount Elizabeth's abilities and talents before she even walks in the door. Because there are people out there who make that judgment. She's late to the meeting and then start making all sorts of assumptions. And I think societally we do that because going back to what I said at the beginning of the episode, we live in a society that rewards type A tendencies. We do. I don't want you to be showing up with a deficit in the client's mind, especially if it's a brand new client that's never worked with us before, just because you're a few minutes late.
SPEAKER_00So I'm feeling really insecure right now. I'm gonna be honest with our listeners. This is raw, unscripted, because I'm hearing all this and I am having a shrinking moment right now. It live on the air ship.
SPEAKER_02Live shrinking moment.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that worries me because I don't want honoring my hardwiring to turn into you having to demonstrate enabling behavior that could be hurting our business or hurting the work we do or the output. And that makes me feel really sad, actually. So respond to that. Because this is live shrinking.
SPEAKER_02So I want to go back to what I said a second ago. I said can, not have. I don't feel like I have to do it. I this is something that I want to do because I know how talented you are and I know what you're capable of doing and how much you can help the clients that we work with. But I also know the systems that we work within and how especially women are judged when they don't fit the mold of the person. And especially as women in a workplace, we are frequently looked to for anticipating needs, managing details, taking that standard type A approach.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02So when you're a woman who's showing up and doesn't exhibit those characteristics right out of the gate in their minds, I feel like that leads sometimes to people discounting you. And I don't want them to do that. Okay. I would say for me, it's more of a protective instinct, if I could be honest. Really? Okay. Yeah, because I know people tend to judge before they actually learn anything about you, about me, about whoever, people in general. Sure. And I don't want them to make that judgment before they actually get to know you. Okay, that's fair. So it's kind of like this protective instinct of what can I do to mitigate that so they actually focus on when we have the conversation, the result. Because as soon as you start speaking to them, here's all these opportunities, here's how we can fix this, and you're so good on the fly, I don't want them shutting down before they get to see that part. Right. We understand the impact of this. And I do want to highlight what I said earlier because I think there is a tougher battle to be fought when you're a woman who exhibits more type B characteristics. Because again, societally, the expectation is that we live our lives in a more type A way. Yes. So when you're not falling into that category, there's additional scrutiny and judgment. And so I think there is to kind of bring it back to the point of our podcast being behaviors that keep women small. I think when you're living with this expectation that, well, I'm supposed to be the organized one, I'm supposed to be the one that's having it all together, I'm supposed to be the one that does this, this, this, this, and this. And you don't fit how that gets done to the T, you can really start to shrink yourself. Other people will shrink you for that as well. I'm sure you've experienced that throughout your life personally, in addition to professionally. Yes, definitely. So I think it's just an understanding. Again, we go back frequently to this concept of getting curious and not judgmental. And so I think this is where Elizabeth and I both have had lessons to learn as we've worked with each other because we are so different in many ways. We're similar in some ways, but different in many ways. Is that stopping to get curious and question okay, that's not how I did it. That's okay. Here's what the outcome was, and that was what the outcome needed to be. So does it matter that we got there in a way that was different from how I would do it? Right. It's okay. As long as the outcome is what it needs to be, it's all that matters. And I would say outcome is what it needs to be based on. In this example, I'm going to use like a client situation where we delivered a high-quality workshop. Did you go about it the way that I would have gone about it? No. But guess what? I think if we would have gone about it the way that I would do it, it wouldn't have been as good. Really? Yeah, because I'm not as good at pivoting in the moment as you are. Okay. I set the plan, I set the program. Sure.
SPEAKER_00And I follow the program. When we're doing that and we're up there live in the moment and we're co-facilitating a full-day workshop, and then your best laid plans, I completely pivot.
SPEAKER_02What does that do to you? Initially, when you would do that when we first started working together, it stressed me out big time. And I was like, oh God, what is she doing? But over time, again, as I observed you doing this, I realized that that's actually something in working with groups that is absent from the way that most people approach it. Your ability to read a room and pivot based on the vibe and how the information we're sharing is being received, I think is a true differentiator for how we work together. Got it.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_02Because sticking to the plan is not always the best plan. I'm not as good as you are with being able to pick a new direction quickly and make it a good one. Got it. So sometimes I can pick up on it, but the program is the program. I don't know. This I'm just gonna stick with it until the end. This is a sinking ship, but I'm holding on for dear life.
SPEAKER_00I think what you said was basically what helps is the fact that you trust me. Yeah. So as long as there's trust, the trust goes both ways. It's not just you trusting the other person in the relationship, but it's also, I would imagine, you trusting yourself that you can roll with whatever comes. Exactly. Yeah. And so as long as you can really work towards that. Then just how beautiful so many relationships can become, comparatively speaking, to where they are today, if each person can truly just create space to let the other person be who they authentically are. Yes. Without expecting them to conform.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, exactly. Because there's so much beauty in the ways that were different. And I think we spend so much time, especially in a professional world, well, with women, particularly in personal roles as well, trying to shove people into boxes and to be the best kind of woman, you have to be this way. Right. That's bullshit. It is bullshit. Total bullshit. There's there's beauty in the differences in how we approach things. And I think we miss out. We've talked about this before, too. We miss out on so much perspective and so many new ways of thinking when we try to shove people in boxes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we do 100%. We do.
SPEAKER_02I think maybe it's shrink this time, which is your live shrinking example.
SPEAKER_00Your shrink this. I feel like that suffices. Yeah, that's our first live shrinking. It is. It's the first time for everything here at MBA. Yes. We had a pre-shrink a couple episodes ago from you.
SPEAKER_02We did, that's true. It it can happen anywhere at any time. So the shrink for me this week is actually one that I witnessed when I was just doom scrolling recently. That's a thing that I try not to do frequently. I was scrolling through, I think it was Instagram the other day, and there was a woman recently who won Jeopardy. And it had been a while since they'd had a female Jeopardy champion. And so she bet big. She had like $19,000 in change, I think. And she picked an $800 question that was a daily double, and she bet big. She risked $10,000. So, like that would have been enough to bring her to the back of the pack pretty heavily.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So they were interviewing her, and she won, she got the question right and won. And so they were interviewing her. Ken Jennings was interviewing her after the episode. And she said, Well, I noticed that there haven't been a lot of female champions lately. Women are always expected to not bet aggressively. And so one thing that I told myself I was gonna do was to be the opposite of that. I was gonna bet aggressively if the opportunity came. And so she's like going on about how she made it a point to bet aggressively because that's not what's expected of women. And I was like, Yes, girl, yes, love this. And then at the end of the interview, she said, I was just really lucky to be in a position to be able to bet that way. And I was like, lucky. Oh my god, you're smart as hell. No, you worked hard to prepare to be on this show. You earned it, you answered the questions right. You got yourself because of your intelligence into a position where you could bet that much and win and become the first female champion in quite a while, right? And she attributed it to luck. Damn it. I was like, no, it was this brief, shining moment, and then boom, yeah. I was so mad when I got done watching that video. I wanted to reach the screen and be like, no, you're really fucking smart. That's why you got this far. See, shrinking moments even find me when I'm just trying to disconnect and dissociate from the world. It all comes back to shrinkage, it really does. Anyway, oh my god, that's the shrinking behavior I have for this week. So, some closing thoughts on today's episodes. I think again, just highlighting the point that I made before. There's so much beauty in embracing our differences, and that's across the board. I think as a society, especially in the last several years, we've gotten really bad at that. Right. So I'm gonna highlight as my closing thought, again, getting curious and encouraging people to lean into who they are truly and authentically, and modeling that behavior yourself.
SPEAKER_00I love that. And then for me, I guess, is just the notion that different doesn't mean irresponsible. I am hoping that everyone listening today it sets a goal for themselves to understand how they are, how they operate, and truly own how it affects the people they care about and recognize when your natural gifts and strengths, when they're helping, and notice when maybe they're not serving you well, and look around you because I promise you there's someone close to in your life who's hardwired differently than you that you can relinquish some control over to and uh let them shine where you might not necessarily shine so naturally. And I'd say that's part of the beauty of what makes us work so well together.
