The "No" You Made Up

How many opportunities have we missed because we assumed the answer would be no?

Assuming a no before asking for a raise. Before applying for the job. Before speaking up in a meeting. Before asking for help. Before ordering our meal the way we actually wanted it.

In this episode, we're talking about one of the most common ways women hold themselves back: negotiating against themselves before anyone else has the chance to respond.

We explore where this pattern comes from, why it feels so protective, and how it costs us confidence, opportunities, and experiences. From salary negotiations and career decisions to apologizing for taking up space, asking for what we need, and even convincing ourselves we can't do something before we've ever tried, we unpack the many ways we create a "no" that may have never existed.

Because the goal isn't to hear "yes" every time. The goal is to stop answering for other people before they've had the chance to answer for themselves.

Thank you for listening to NDA!

If this episode made you think, challenged a perspective, or helped you recognize a pattern in yourself, consider sharing it with someone else who might need the conversation.

You can connect with us on Instagram at @nda_pod, where we continue the discussion between episodes.

Until next time, notice the pattern. Then decide what happens next.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Did you know this is a fun fact that I'm opening with? Did you know I love fun facts that the very first time that I ever made a counter offer to an employer after receiving an offer from them was the place that you and I just left. Get out of dodge. Yes. Offer was made. It wasn't what I was expecting. So I countered, and that was the first time that I'd ever done that.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Okay, quick question. Is it because that's the first time in your career leading up to that point you had ever received an offer you weren't hoping to receive? No. No. Definitely not. So that would mean that you accepted plenty of offers that were not what you had wanted leading up to. I accepted exactly one, two, three, at least four. Really? You weren't waiting for them to say no, you said no on your own behalf for those other opportunities.

SPEAKER_01 0:55

Yeah. It was like I'd get the offer and I'd look at it and I'd be like, Well, it's not what I was expecting, but I don't want to rock the boat and I don't want to make it awkward. So I'll just accept this and then work really hard and then I'll ask for more money later. And guess what? What? Never ask for more money later either.

SPEAKER_00 1:14

Wait, and let me guess. Did they on their own say, you know what? We know that we lowballed you and you didn't negotiate for yourself. So therefore, we're just gonna open our purses here and give you more money. Did that ever happen? No. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Sure didn't. It sure didn't. Today's topic is something that I've definitely struggled with, especially in my professional career. But I was reflecting, there's some personal side stuff too that I want to talk about. But this was the biggest glaring area where I noticed that I've really negotiated against myself leading up to this point in my career.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

So here's another fun fact for our listeners. You joined the organization that we used to work at together before going out on our own, and you reported to me. I did. Guess what? I would have been turned off if you did not try to negotiate more for yourself. I definitely did not intentionally try to lowball you. I just want our listeners to know that. That's not even how I roll. But and also at the same time, as with any employer, I knew that the owner of the organization that we came from, I knew that there was room if you did want to negotiate. And I would have been really, really disappointed if you didn't try to counter. So good job.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, it's something that I've struggled with for a long time, and we'll get into a little bit more about how this has played out in my life. And I'm sure you have some examples as well, especially with the coaching work that you do and the people that you work with. I think this is something that runs rampant that women do all the time in various facets of their lives. Yes, let's get into it.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Most NDAs keep people quiet. Ours does the opposite. Around here, NDA means no dicks allowed. Not men, the behaviors that keep women small. This is the podcast for women who are done shrinking and ready to rise. I'm Amanda Kachurka. And I'm Elizabeth Cipola. Welcome to NDA.

SPEAKER_01 3:23

Let's talk about where this comes from. We've talked before about how women are often rewarded for being agreeable, being low maintenance, being grateful, not taking up space, being humble, and being viewed as selfish is always something that we're trying to avoid. I've heard it a million times when it comes to self-care or taking time for yourself. And this is no exception. So it's not wanting to appear too demanding, or well, I should be grateful for what I have, and wanting more is selfish.

SPEAKER_00 3:54

I would even venture to say that most women we have these full-blown conversations in our minds. In these conversations, we are answering questions that nobody actually asked about ourselves. So it's almost like we don't wait for the rejection, we reject ourselves first, kind of like what we talked about in your example earlier, because I'm going through all the different people I've coached, all the different people that I've mentored throughout my career, I've managed, I've led. I'm even thinking about my own daughter. And even back to myself when I was in high school and younger before I really flipped a switch and decided not to negotiate against myself. But yeah, it's like we convince ourselves they're probably just gonna say no or I don't want to be a bother. And meanwhile, nobody's even heard the question yet to reject us.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Exactly. It's a protection mechanism. If you don't ask, you can't be rejected, you can't be disappointed, you can't be embarrassed, you can't be judged. It's adaptive behavior that we create a pattern, and we talk about this a lot where we create patterns in our minds, and then once we've established the foundation of the pattern, we start looking for evidence that proves it. So you get a positive response, for example, from an employer when you don't counter and they are all of a sudden even more excited to bring you on board because they just got you for a deal. Exactly. Yes, yes, and that reinforces so you're confirming, oh, yeah, look, see, they're so happy to have me on board. If I would have countered, it would have made things really awkward, and they would have thought that I was ungrateful. And I think, especially related to career offers, at least I see a lot more of that now, even just talking with friends and family as they're looking for positions where there's even more pressure to be grateful because oh, at least I have a job, at least I got an offer.

SPEAKER_00 5:48

That makes me want to puke every single time I hear someone say that what I'm guilty of it with. I'm wondering if you can relate to this or any of our listeners. So I negotiate against myself, I would say only in my marriage. And here's what I mean by that. My husband, Mike, he's amazing, love him to death. Couldn't ask for a better husband. But what I do is it actually it's not even just my marriage, my kids make fun of me because I do it with them too. Instead of saying, Hey, can you unload the dishwasher? somehow I'll just unload it myself. And now I have pushed myself to ask someone to do it, but then this is what I do I'll say, hey, can you unload the dishwasher? And I kid you not, if my husband or one of the kids doesn't jump up in the next five seconds to do it, then I've built this huge legal case in my brain and I'm pissed off and angry and resentful, and then I just do it loudly. I might add, I do it loudly and put everything. Don't take it out on the dishes. Exactly. We as women, not just in our career but in our personal lives too. It's almost like we think that asking for help is equivalent to asking someone to donate a kidney or something like that. I don't know. I'm trying to think of a dramatic example. That's exactly what I was thinking. Were you thinking of a kidney?

SPEAKER_01 7:10

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 7:11

That is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

That is so funny. We're mind melded today. I completely agree with all of that. And I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, I also negotiate against myself my physical body. Oh, okay. Especially before I started working out, I would frequently talk myself out of doing things that I perceived as potentially too difficult. So whether it was like we were out traveling somewhere and it was a couple miles to walk to wherever we wanted to go, I would immediately push for calling an Uber or calling a cab or whatever to get us there instead of walking. Because I was like, my lower back's really gonna hurt and my feet are gonna hurt, and I'm gonna slow us down, and then we're gonna potentially be late. And I don't want my husband or my friends or whoever we're with to be mad at me because I'm not in good enough shape to make this walk or whatever the case was. Over the last probably year-ish, my husband and I started doing a lot more like outside stuff. I'm not full-blown uphill mountain hiking. We're not there yet. We're working up to it. But we went to in New York, there's a place called Watkins Glen. If you are listening to this and you've never been there, I highly recommend it. It's absolutely beautiful. There's, I forget how many, a ridiculous number of waterfalls. And there is a trail that goes along in the glen, and the trail goes along the water, it's gorgeous views the entire way. There are, depending on which direction you take the trail, there are a lot of stairs. Okay. So if you're going one direction where you're going down stairs the whole time, the view isn't as breathtaking, I think personally. Right. So you have to take the harder route to get the better views. And when we went last year, I was very nervous about going on this trip. And am I going to make it? Am I going to slow us down? All these stairs, this is going to be an issue. And for once, I decided not to talk myself out of it before we got there. And so we did it. We did the trail. We actually did it both directions because we got there, and there's a bus that runs from either end of the trail back to the parking lot, but it wasn't operational that day. So I was like, okay, well, to get back to universe. Universe gave you a sign. Sure did. So we did the trail both directions. We did the upstairs direction first and the downstairs direction back. But I did it. And were there points where I had to stop because my knee started to hurt or I just needed to catch my breath? Yep. But you know what? We had gorgeous views to enjoy along the way. So we just kind of took our time and took a ton of pictures and just really stopped and enjoyed being in the moment. It was our anniversary trip. So just celebrating being together and our 11 years of marriage. And so after that trip, I think that was what was a turning point for me in not negotiating against myself physically.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

I love that for you. Yeah, that whole burden notion. That was definitely an undertone of those stories you fought off in your mind so that you could do that and actually enjoy your anniversary trip.

SPEAKER_01 10:23

That's beautiful. I look back at those pictures frequently because they are they're just so gorgeous. And I think to myself, like, how many opportunities I've missed out on because I was just telling myself, no, you can't do this before I would even try. And so now we've started really getting more into the outside stuff. And I actually said to him, We were doing a trail walk, I don't remember how long ago it was, but I turned to him and I said, Why haven't we done more of this? And he was he kind of like looked at me endearingly and was like, uh, and then very kindly said, because you never wanted to. Oh, wow. Which was true. I was always the one, he's game for whatever. I was always the one who would say, No, I can't do that, or or no, it's not a good idea. And it was coming from a place of embarrassment and not wanting to be a burden and not hold him back from enjoying an experience because he was worrying about me. Right. So that's a shift. It's still a work in progress, but I'm doing a lot better with it than I used to.

SPEAKER_00 11:23

And that's all anyone can ask. I have a hot take on something. Career. I'm excited. Actually, let's hear it. I know this might piss off some people, uh, some of our listeners. I just read something, a social media post from an influencer who was commenting about just how enraged and upset that she had always been because of how much more money men earn than women, and just how it's not fair because of the systems within which we work and all the things. I don't disagree. And but also at the same time, I can honestly tell you, and I know this to be true, what I'm about to say, because of the nature of my career and the roles that I've held, I've been in the world of human resources, and I have through the majority of my career, I've been in the top executive role in either a HR or organizational development capacity. So when you're in that role, just for our listeners' awareness, you have exposure to knowing what everyone's compensation is. And so I can tell you factually that I myself have always earned as much, if not a little bit more than my counterparts, who are men and my peer equivalents. Why? Because I never was afraid to ask for it and not only ask for it, but to do it in such a way as to say, this is how much I need in order to make this work. And it's basically a boundary, a hard line that I drew. And the employer could decide, yes, you're worth it, worth the investment to our organization, or no, and then they might pass. But I can honestly tell you, I think that so much, not entirely, but so much of the reason why there's pay disparity with men versus women is because of what you said at the beginning of this episode, where we are almost born apologizing or born trying to not be a burden and we negotiate against ourselves and we decide it's better not to ask because we don't want to be rejected or inconvenience anybody. I don't know what's your reaction to that.

SPEAKER_01 13:27

Yeah, it's very true. And I think there are kind of hearkening back to the the episode we did with Amanda Duncan on the systems that exist. I think they're certainly part of that for sure. But yes, I agree. In order to succeed as a woman in the workplace, especially if you're in a male-dominated industry or a male-dominated organization, the less noise you make, the better. Yes. And I think we classify making noise, rocking the boat, we classify asking for what we want and what we need under that. Yes, we do. And then, and I'm sure you dealt with this in your previous roles. I I know you did when I've witnessed it, but when there tends to be resentment or friction when you ask for what you want.

SPEAKER_00 14:15

Oh, yes, absolutely, absolutely. Resentment, friction, and passive aggressiveness, in some cases, aggressiveness. It depends who you're dealing with, right? But the thing is, if you can go into the ask knowing your worth, knowing your hard line, knowing your boundary for whatever it is you're asking for. I'm not even just necessarily saying that it has to do with money because it doesn't. It could be asking for more openness for you to test some creative ideas you have for your business or your employer of where you work, or I'm trying to give real life examples of some of the things that that I asked for that maybe weren't monetary.

SPEAKER_01 14:56

I think ultimately the goal here isn't becoming willing or getting comfortable with hearing no, because rejection is rejection, it stings. We're not asking you to just suddenly make all this peace with rejection, because that's not realistic. But what you are looking for here is the win. And the win, again, not the outcome, not I made the ask, I got what I wanted, because that's not going to happen all the time either. No, the win is making the ask. Absolutely. The win is that step.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

Yes, and for people who aren't used to making the ask, there are little baby steps that sure that you can take. Yeah, absolutely. I don't know. Like Amanda, you've been out to dinner with me or lunches when we've worked together or traveled. And what have you noticed about me? I'm just curious if you've ever noticed it when I'm placing my order. Do you apologize a lot?

SPEAKER_01 15:49

No, oh my god, do I? I don't know. I'm gonna pay attention next time, though. The reason I said that is because I haven't experienced spoiler alert, it's actually the shrinking behavior I'm gonna share today that I witnessed yesterday when somebody was placing an order with the number of apologies. Oh, but no, I don't that was just the first thing that came to my mind.

SPEAKER_00 16:08

Okay, no, so what I do is I'm like, oh, I would like this dish, but can you modify it in this way? There's always a modification.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

It's like when Harry met, no, I've never noticed that. It's like when Harry met Sally, that's one of my favorite scenes. Yes, on the side is a very big thing for you.

SPEAKER_00 16:26

It is, it is, and I'm not trying to be difficult, not trying to be too much. I'm not trying to ask for too much or inconvenience anyone. I know what I like, and I'm not afraid to ask for what I like, and I'm very kind about it. I guess what I'm saying is for those of you who aren't used to asking for what you want in the big ways, you can do a little experiment and give it a try with something small. So when you're out to dinner, ask for extra sauce. My husband, I remember when we were dating and I thought he was crazy. And what was even crazier is the fact that it freaking worked more often than it didn't. This man would ask for a discount. He looked at everything like negotiation. I swear to God, we could be cashing out at the grocery store. He would say to the cashier, Do you have any discounts? Or hey, I noticed that the packaging on this product is a little funky. Oh, we're taking a risk here by buying it. Could we get a discount? Could you mark that down a little? I'm telling you, this man, yes, that is wild. That does not align with the mic that I know today. I know, but when it comes to that, he does. So I would say do an experiment and ask for something tiny, like even a discount. Be like Mike.

SPEAKER_01 17:40

Asking when you're in a restaurant if what comes out of the kitchen isn't exactly what you ordered, yes, speaking up and saying something. I think there's I know I'm like that a lot of the time. I have gone out to eat with people who are like that too, or the order is not completely right. And sometimes it really isn't a big deal, and it's like, okay, this is fine. But then other times it's like, no, I ordered it this way because I wanted it this way. And whether it was a miscommunication on what the server wrote down or the kitchen just didn't read the ticket clearly, whatever the case was, I'm not looking to blame somebody. I'm just saying, can I have what I ordered?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

Yeah, please. Exactly. I'm thinking of even women that I have coached or do coach, even currently. And I've literally heard them say, and I'm sure many of our listeners have said in their own minds, well, I I want to apply for this job, but I only have met like 85% of the qualifications. Oh, yes. Meanwhile, you've got Joe Blow over here who realized that all you need to do is have a pulse. He meets no other qualifications, and he's like, Yeah, that's me. I'm the perfect guy, and he's applying, right? So we do that in so many ways, but each time we do a little bit more and a little bit more to ask, then we teach our nervous system that nobody died because you ask for something that you want or need. And by the way, it is okay for you to ask for something you want, it doesn't have to always be something you need. I just want to throw that out there as well.

SPEAKER_01 19:13

Yeah, that's absolutely right. We always like to share some easy disruptions. We've shared some already, but I think there's some additional questions that you can ask yourself when you're preparing to say no or holding yourself back from negotiating in your favor. Question one, did they actually say no, or am I assuming that they'll say no? Am I responding to facts or fear? Look at the facts. Kind of that question you shared a few episodes ago. What do I know to be true? Right. Kind of grounding ourselves in in fact. What will I lose by not asking?

SPEAKER_00 19:44

I like that. I think a lot of women we think, well, it's the big deal, so what? So I don't get the extra sauce on my chicken wings the way I like it. No, it's not about the sauce, it's not about the chicken wings.

SPEAKER_01 19:54

No, I think, especially in the larger scale of a job, for example. Well, if I don't ask for the additional money that I know I should be making, I'm going to suffer. My family might suffer. That's going to be less money coming into my household. And that's not in alignment with what I was planning for. So it's thinking a little bit further ahead because I think we tend to, when we're negotiating against ourselves, we tend to stay in the moment and think, oh, I don't want to rock the boat, I don't want to cause friction. But think beyond that. Think about future you and how your life, your experience, whatever the case may be, is going to be impacted if you say no now.

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Absolutely. And each time you don't advocate or speak up or make the ask of what you need or want, then that is one more way that you abandon yourself quietly. And the more frequently and the more often you do it, next thing you know, you're never ever not only asking for what you need, but you're walking around really, really resentful and angry. Yes, it builds over time for sure. No question. It does. And then you're slamming dishes around when you're unloading the dishwasher. And then you're taking it out on the dishwasher. I know. It brings a whole new meeting to Rage Against the Machine. It's good. Oh my god. Wait, is that who sang the song? Oh, what was it? You know that song, Fuck You, I Won't Do What You Tell Me. You know that song? Yes. And yes. It's like living in the name of or whatever. Is that Rage Against the Machine? It was okay. Swear to God, not joking. I literally two days ago had that song blasting in the kitchen while I was putting the dishes away.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

We're literally raging against the dishwasher. That's hilarious. It's also killing in the name up, but that's so it's living. Yeah, it's killing. But I mean, either way, it's a slightly more violent path than what you picked. But that's oh my god, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

See, we're real ladies. We are we I just want our pod community to know that we don't. Claim to be experts, we're just doing our best like you are, just here doing our best.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

So let's switch to shrink this for this week. I alluded to mine a little bit earlier. So I went to grab lunch and coffee yesterday after we wrapped up at a conference that we were attending. I walked in and there was a woman in front of me in line. And this particular coffee shop changes their specials every month. And so because yesterday, this episode's coming out later, but yesterday was the first of July. The specials had just changed. So she was standing at the menu board and she was perusing and trying to figure out what she wanted. And she saw me walk up behind her and she was like, Oh, you can go ahead of me. I'm really sorry. I don't know what I want yet. And I was like, I'm ordering lunch. I need to peruse as well. She I started counting, she apologized to me six times in like three minutes.

SPEAKER_00 22:51

Oh God.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Did you point it out to her? I will. Well, finally, the last time I was like, I promise you do not need to apologize. I'm trying to figure out what I want too. I'm not in a hurry. You take your time, make your order when you're ready, and I will be totally fine waiting here, figuring out what I want. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just my heart broke. Live your life. You deserve to take up space. You deserve to take your time and figure out what you want. You don't have to apologize. And listen, I am very well aware that we are living in a world where people are angrier and outwardly meaner. And so I would not be surprised if she had encountered people in the past who were mean to her in that situation. That's certainly a possibility. I acknowledge that a hundred percent. However, my heart broke for her because I've had situations where I've done something kind of in a similar vein, but not to that extreme. Right. I cannot imagine feeling so many anxious feelings in a situation like that that you feel the need to apologize so much. Oh, just you deserve to order your sandwich and your coffee in peace.

SPEAKER_00 24:00

Exactly. And when I said, by the way, did you say anything I would have? I didn't mean in a judgmental way. I know you know that about me, Amanda. I just want to make sure our listeners know that because we are not encouraging women to do anything other than help each other rise. So the way that you brought it up, for example, that's what I mean. In a way to say, hey, I see you. You don't need to apologize for your existence. You deserve to be here. You have a right to take up space just the same way I do. But yeah, somehow along the way, she definitely learned that apologizing is a way to keep her safe, right? And to keep her likable. Made me sad for her. So ironically, we never know what example the other is going to bring for this segment that we have every week. Mine also has to do with apologizing. And I did casually mention it to you the other day when we grabbed lunch during the conference that we were attending. And here's something I've noticed I can't unsee it. I apologize all the freaking time, but only in one scenario. The goddamn grocery store. I don't know why. Instead of saying excuse me, I say I'm sorry, or oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. What am I apologizing for? I didn't do anything wrong. And I'm even apologizing when someone else bumps into me. What am I apologizing for? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 25:21

You're just out here trying to buy some groceries.

SPEAKER_00 25:23

Yes, it's like everybody else, like everyone else. And yesterday I went to Wegmans, which is an amazing grocery store. And if you are listener in a state or a city that has a Wegmans, you know what I mean by saying it's next level. So I was at my local Wegmans grabbing something to come home and whip up for dinner. And there was this guy who had his car parked in the middle of the aisle sideways, and it was parked like he was Mr. Wegman or something. And you know what? I apologized. No, so yeah, I don't know what the hell is going on, but I've started paying attention to this, I'd say the past month, and now I can't stop hearing myself. The bizarro thing is I'm having a really difficult time stopping it. So I'm really working on replacing that I'm sorry, specifically only in the grocery store, with an excuse me. So, or how about this? Nothing at all. Maybe I don't have to say anything, right? Because most of the time when I'm apologizing, I'm noticing that that's not even what's called for. I don't know why it's so hard to break because I could say, Oh, it's just I don't know, a language habit, but I know that's not true. Right. I know somehow, some way deep you're viewing yourself as an inconvenience. Yeah, it's a nervous system habit, and somehow I'm trying not to come off like I'm demanding or difficult or taking up too much space. So that one is in the works. I can't tell you, and I've conquered it, and I'm no longer shrinking. No, if you see me in the grocery store, there's a good chance, even if you slam the car into my ankles, I'll probably say I'm sorry. And I want you to blame, and I want you to say, No, you're not, you're not sorry, and you need to keep me honest. So, anyways, that is my shrinkage moment.

SPEAKER_01 27:09

It's funny because you say this, and then I'm picturing my husband a major pet peeve for both of us is lack of self and spatial awareness in public places of other like from other people. So if we're in the grocery store and encounter that, he will just physically move that person's cart. I love that. He won't even say anything to the person, he'll just move their cart out of the way. I'm gonna start doing that. It's just you're not the only person here. There are other other shoppers, people have to get through, just have a little spatial awareness.

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Exactly. Oh, I like that.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

So thank you as always for listening. We would love to hear from you. Any shrinking behaviors that you want to share with us, please send us a message on Instagram. We are at NDA underscore pod. You can also subscribe and do that on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, Amazon Music, pretty much anywhere you get your podcasts. We love to hear from you and share the behaviors that we're all learning from and growing from together. Some closing reflections on today's topic. We both shared lots of examples of how we negotiate against ourselves. And it's sometimes big things like how much money you're making when you're offered a position, and sometimes it's smaller things like asking for sauce on the side at a restaurant. But we do it all the time. And in those actions, we're underestimating ourselves and we're we're robbing ourselves of the chance to grow and learn. Right. Yes. And that's what this podcast is all about helping you grow and learn.

SPEAKER_00 28:41

Every unnecessary apology, it's almost like a little withdrawal from your self-confidence account and a little apology here and there, or negotiating against yourself here and there. It might only cost a penny or a nickel one at a time, but I promise you, and for those of you listening, you feel it over the years, it adds up. It really is. So we challenge you after listening to today's episode, go seek out opportunities to make a little deposit back into that account.

SPEAKER_01 29:11

Yes, absolutely. The opportunities that change our lives often begin with an uncomfortable ask. And so even though not every ask becomes a yes, every ask does expand what's possible for you.